John Thoresen Grue

   Another name for John was Jon.

  Research Notes:

1. Source: Orville Movold, personal correspondence 1983
- lists birthdate

b. Norway Parish Register - John's birth (Marie Tollan's transcription); 1813

- parents, John Thoresen Grue og Kari Ingebretsdatter; residence Grue
- witnesses, Ragnhild Johnsdtr (Breen), Olava Olsdtr, Ole Larsen (Breen), Adam Ingebretsen, Ole Haagensen (Breen)
- note that in the Ministerialbok, no residence is recorded

c. Marriage, 1845
- John Thoresen Grue age 31 father Thore Johnsen Grue from Tolgen
- Kari Hansdtr Korsiöen age 24, father Hans Eriksen Korsiöen



++ 1. c. Leaving Røros Parish for Idre, Sweden ---- Recorded 4 Oct 1847 [ but must have been at least one year earlier, since daughter Cari / Kari / Karen was born 25 Oct 1846 recorded in the Sweden Church Record ]; Røros Ministerialbok, 1847, page 588, line 14

- John Thoresen Grue, age 34 with wife Cari Jonsdtr Korsjøen age 25 with 2 barn, one age 2 and the other age 1 (name not recorded)
???


1. d. Sweden Church Records - Idre, Kopparberg Co, Sweden - births

Karin birth, 25 Oct 1846 bap 26 Jan 1847; parents Jo Thoresen and Karin Hansdotter, Skärvagen (25-30?);
Idre births 1845-1859 (C:1), image 6, no. 5

Walberg / Valborg, 25 Oct 1848 bap 25 Feb 1849; parents Jo Thoresen and Cari Hansdotter, Skärvagen (25-30?);
births, 1845-1859 (c:1), image 8 no. 9


1. e. Sweden Church Records - Idre, Kopparberg Co, Sweden - household examination [Arkivdigital]

- 1840-1849, with first visit in 1849 (A1:3) farm Skärvagen, page 40 - Jo Thoresen Grue, born 25 Oct 1813, Tolgen, married 15 Jun 1845, arrival 1847; Cari Hansdotter, born 12 Mar 1822, Røros; Henerica born 2 Oct 1844 in Røros; Walborg born 25 Oct 1848 at Skävagen; Karin born 25 Oct 1846 at Skävagen

- 1850-1860 (A1:4), visit 1855; farm Skärvagen, image 55 --- same information above, but births of Walborg and Karin at Idre ;;; there is a note that indicates the family left for Røros 6 Mar 1860


1. f. Idre parish moving in records; 14 Mar 1847; B:1, 1845-1894, image 6 no 2

Jo Thoresson Grue, med hustra, och 1 dotter, from Rörass to Skärvagen, page 47 (but should be page 40)


Conflicting Data: (1 ) The actual move from Røros to Idre parish is conflicting. The Røros parish register records leaving on 4 Oct 1847 with wife and 2 children, but the Idre parish records arrival on 14 Mar 1847 with wife and 1 daughter. (2) Another conflict is that daughter Karin's birth is recorded at Idre on 25 Oct 1846 (and baptised in Jan 1847) and Idre records show the family arriving in Mar of 1847?

A likely explanation is that the parish priests in both Røros and Idre are recording the dates sometime after the actual events and that they may have only recorded the information based on what given to them by the family or even by others. Memories of an actual day may not be accurate.
There is no way to prove one or the other. It seems that people and families often moved around over sparsely populated areas and it is likely that the parish priests would have had a hard time keeping track of the comings and goings of people. And it is likely some priests were conscientious in the keeping of their records, but some may not have been so conscientious or simply human err. Most of the Norway and Sweden church records seem to be quite accurate, in that dates (for birth for exampl) are usually quit econsistent over time. But there are times times when records simply don't match and there is no way to prove it.

Conclusion: It is likely that Karin was born sometime in Oct of 1846 and it is likely that the family came to Idre in the spring or early summer of 1846.



2. Source: 1865 and 1875 Norway Census
- birthplace for John and Karen given in 1865 & 1875 Norway Census
- birthplace for children as Røros Bergstad, with the exception of Valborg listed in 1875 as Røros Landsognet; Tobias birthplace Tolgens ---- from the Sweden Church records - Karin and Valborg were born in Sweden
- 1865, farm Haugene (#401); 1875 farm Hougene paa Bergstaden (Huus# 401)
- 1865, John Thoresen listed as "day laborer" (Dagarbeider); 1875 listed as "farmer who owns farm" (Gaardburger, Selveier)
- 1865, children listed as "at home" (hjemme); 1875 "helps/assist parents" (Hjaelper Foraeldrene) for Valborg and Johan, and "at/with parents" (Hos Forseldrene)


3. Tobias not listed with family in 1875 Norway census

- 1865 Norway census - Haugene farm (#401), Røros
- Note: no cattle are recorded

4. age/birthdate for Johan conflicts - 1865, abt. 1857; 1875 listed as 1838

5. Emigrants from Throndhiem registered 23 March 1881 list Jon T. Grue age 60, (born abt 1821), wife Kari age 50 (born abt 1831) and sons John age 22, (born abt 1859), Klaus age 16, (born abt 1865), and Hans age 10 (born abt. 1871) with destination of Dalton, MN (Otter Tail county); residence as Røros

Emigrants from Throndhiem registered 28 April 1880, Tobias Grue age 28, (born abt. 1852) with destination of St. Paul, MN; residence as Røros

**** ages/birthdates are not the same with the exception of Klaus (spelled as Claus in 1865 and 1875 Norway Census) and Tobias

** no record of Jon T. Grue and Kari in 1900 US Census

+++ Henerika - emigrated with husband, John Knutson in 11 April 1882

6. Source: Ministerialbok, Sør-Trøndelag, Røros Parish (Digitalarkivet), 1879-1890, page 227 (listed for April 1881)
- lists family as leaving the Parish for America
- birthdate for John is 1858, Klaus is 1864 (most likely, but difficult to read last digit), Hans is 1867
- daughters, Henerika, Karen and Valborg are not listed with the family


6. a. Marriage record, page 306 Røros Minnisterialbok; link, https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/2399/238
- far left column, Jon ..... [? ] fra Tolgen on 14 May 1836 ..... [ ? ] W or V ...? in Stordalin 2 mar 1838


7. a. Source: Rørosboka, Vol 1, page 494 (basic/literal translation, Rueben D Grue, July 2008)

- Thoresen Grue left with his wife and three sons and numerous family [members] live now in America

b. Rørosboka, Vol 3, pages 141-142; farm Korrssjøen østre, gårdsnr. 54, bruksnr. 1

- lists ancestors of Kari Hansdtr as well as her brothers/sisters and some of their children


8. a. Klokkervang, p 17,18

- Jon Toresen (Grue) was married to Kari Hansdtr Korssjøen. children - Tobias, Hans, Kari, Henrika, Valborg
- "It has been told that the marriage was on Kjerringvold i Aalen [ Aalen or Alen is about 40 kms north of Røros ]. The remaining evidently traveled to America.
[ Den sisste blev gift på Kjerringvold i Aalen. De øvlge vistnok reist til Amerika ]

- note: Claus is not listed as children of Jon in Klokkervang, but Claus is recorded in the Norway Parish Registers with parents, John T Grue and Kari Hansdtr

b. Bygebok for Os [PDF - Tore Jonsen Grue ], page 375

- Jon ... left in 1836 to Stjørdalen [Nørd Trondelag] [age 23] [ Tolga Ministerialbok, 1815-1836; leaving but handwriting is very difficult to read ]
- child bapitized in Os: Kari, 1846, Kari b. informed or known [?] that they have stayed for a long time by Skarvagen in Idre [Sweden] ????? ; BUT:

[ 19 Dec 2013 ] no recording of birth/baptism for Kari, Karen, or Kjersti in Os i Tolga Klokkerbok, Tolga Klokkerbok or Tolga Ministerialbok for the the year 1846 (Os i Tolga - 1844-1847] or [ +++ 22 Mar 2015 -- there is or the Røros Ministerialbok or Klokkerbook ;; it isn't clear what source the Bygebok for Os used for the statement "baptized in Os", +++ but it is known that they lived on the farm Skarvagen (Skärvagen) in Idre

9. Source: Theodore Thoreson Grue - Armena/Edmonton (father was 'our' Thore Simonsen Grue, born 1853); personal interview - John had a daughter who was Mrs. John Torgersen (also there were/are three brothers in the States - John, Tobias, and Claus)

=== [26 Dec 2009]

- Mrs John Torgersen is incorrect - John T Grue's daughter was Mrs John Knutsen (Henerika), and this would be the person Theodore was likely talking about
- Mrs John Torgersen (Hilda Grue marrying Johannes Torgensen) was the daughter John J Grue (son of John T Grue, born 1813)


10. Source: John T Grue; Otter Tail Co, MN Courthouse; recorded on 21 Mar 1894

- widow, age 80; wife as Kari; died of old age
- father - Tor J Grue, Norway (no listing for mother)
- cause of death - old age

Kari's death/burial is recorded in the United Lutheran Church records in Elbow Lake. There is some error in the record - date of death is after the funeral? At any rate she died in 1887.
https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/60722/images/41742_314911-00390?ssrc=&backlabel=Return

Note: I have not found


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unproven - more research is needed: updated 26 May 2023

Below is some notes about 2 other children that some family reseachers have suggested that John Thoresen Grue, b 1813. Both of these children were born outside of marriage with the church parish registers noting the children as
"uægte". However, this is uncertain and there seems to be conflicting data. One of these children was Andreas Johnsen born 26 Jun 1840 and the other was Karen Johanna Johnsdatter born 31 Dec 1839. The mother for each of these were different. However, the parish registers only record the father as Jon / John Thoresen, and so it is hard to determine if the father was in fact, John Thoressen Grue, b 1813.

There are some Ancestry FTs that record this, but none provided any sources that prove or disprove this.


11. other children of John Thoresen Grue, born 1813 [ 3 Jan 2017 ]

There are 3 sources that suggest John Thoresen Grue (1813-1894) had two children out-of-wedlock / illegitimate (uægte, an archiac spelling; now uekte):

a. Andreas Johnsen Moksnes, born 26 June 1840 at, Størjdal, Nord-Trøndelag

- Birger Moksnes posts this on 18 Mar 2006 on http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/TRONDELAG/2006-03/1143053620 [ this is NO longer available ]
- Joyce Dougan from Edmonton (on the same post as Birger Moknses); she is likely a descendant of John Broen (Armena)

- Einar Randolf Wold has recorded this on this geni.com database on 5 Mar 2009; link, https://www.geni.com/people/Andreas-Moksnes/6000000003074655530?through=6000000003204501920
;; Einar: also links to Tore Johnsen Grue and Kari Ing Broplas as John Thoresen Grue's parents ; Andreas' mother as Kirsten Efastdatter; Andreas' birth location is not recorded ; Andreas died on 25 Nov 1910 at Værnes [just south of present day Stjordal and about 30 kms east of Trondheim]

Note: none of the above individuals provide source citiations, and so it is difficult to determine the accuracy of their information.

-- Norway digitalarchives birth record for Andreas Johnsen -- birth 26 June 1840, bap, 19 July 1840, uægte Ministerialbok,1833-1844, og døpte, page 147, Støjdal parish, Nord Trondelag,
-- father Jon Thoresen from [ Roraas ??? likely, but difficult to make it out ] [ ??? there is some more writing to the left and on the next line, but I can't make it out ??? ] and mother Kirsten Efastdrt Moksnes -- listed as ugaete (illegitmate); link re birth , https://media.digitalarkivet.no/en/view/16376/148 ; image 148 page 147 line 142
-- this birth record does not prove that the father Jon Thoresen is in fact John Thoresen Grue (b 1813),
BUT this is likely


b. Karen Johanna Johnsdatter born, 31 Dec 1839 and bap 1 Jan 1840 at Stjørdal parish, Nord-Trøndelag

- a series of posts on Dis-Norge Forum posts this; the posts are started by David Vinge from Edmonton (possibly related to Joyce Dougan ??) requesting assistance with Karen Johanna's birth record from Digitalarkivet; there appears to be 2 different people responding (one person identied as "Petter" from Olso, and another person unnamed but from Stjørdal

-- Norway digitalarchives birth record for Karen Johanna -- birth 31 Dec 1839 bap 1 Jan 1840, uægte Ministerialbok,1833-1844, page 139, line 5, Stjørdal parish, Nord Trondelag,
-- father Jon Thoresen ................ ?? and mother, Marith Larsdt from Præstmoe or Præstmoen
-- link, https://media.digitalarkivet.no/view/16376/139 ; there is more handwriting but almost impossible to read














12. [ 8 Dec 2011 ]

-- ancestry.com public member tree, släkt ( owner beritcarlgren; Löddeköpinge, Skåne [ Sweden ? ]
-- lists birth as 26 July 1840 BUT - no sources provided; no information on John Thoresen Grue

[ 17 Apr 2012 ]

== Ancestry.com Public Member Tree 'Persson Skäktträd Family Tree owner olssonsgarden' (last log in 17 Apr 2012) ^{186,540,557,2254}

  Noted events in his life were:

1. Migration - 1836, 1836, Stjørdal, Nord Trondelag, Norway. ^540,2255 Moving in records for Stjørdal parish in Nord Trondelag for the year 1837 records that Jon Thoresen Grue from Tolga (Tolgen) had arrived in Stjørdal parish in Nov 1836 (possibly the 4th or 14th, but difficult to read the image). It appears that he went to Helless farm?

2. Migration - 1847, 1847, Idre, Kopparbergs County, Sweden. ²²⁵⁶ Arrived in Idre parish, Kopparbergs Län (County), Sweden

3. Migration - 1847, 4 Oct 1847, Røros, Sør Trondelag, Norway. ²²⁵⁷ Leaving Røros Parish for Idre, Sweden

4. Migration - 1860, 6 Mar 1860, Idre, Kopparbergs County, Sweden. ²²⁵⁸ Leaving Idre parish for Røros, Sør Trondelag (Bortflyttad - moved away or relocated)

5. Residence - 1865, 31 Dec 1865, Haugene Farm (#401), Røros, Sør-Trøndelag, Norway. ²²⁵⁹

6. Residence - 1875, 1 Feb 1875, Hougene paa Bergstaden (Huus#401), Røros, Sør-Trøndelag, Norway. ²²⁶⁰

7. Emigration - 1881, 23 Mar 1881, Norway. ^{2261,2262,2263}

8. Migration - 1881, Apr 1881, Røros, Sør Trondelag, Norway. ²²⁶⁴ Family leaving Røros parish for North America. John T Grue, wife Kari Hansdtr and sons, John, Klaus, and Hans left on 1 Apr 1881.

9. Residence - 1885, 1 Jun 1885, Stony Brook Twp, Grant Co, Minnesota, United States. ²²⁶⁵

John married Kari Hansdtr Korssjøen, daughter of Hans Eriksen Korssjøen and Valborg Jørgensdatter Krogen, on 15 Jun 1845 in Røros, Sør Trondelag, Norway.²²⁵⁰ (Kari Hansdtr Korssjøen was born in 1821 in Røros Landsognet, Sør-Trøndelag, Norway ^2266,2267 and died on 12 Mar 1887 in Grant Co, Minnesota, United States ^2253,2268.)